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Full Transcript

Santa Barbara Zen Center had the distinct honor of engaging with Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo via a pre-recorded Q&A session. The recording of her answers was shared with the community at hospice and via Zoom on Sunday, April 28th.

About Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo

Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo (born 1943) is a bhikṣuṇī in the Drukpa Lineage of the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism. She is an author of various books, a teacher of Tibetan Buddhism, and founder of the Dongyu Gatsal Ling Nunnery in Himachal Pradesh, India. She is best known for having spent twelve years living in a remote cave in the Himalayas, three of those years in strict meditation retreat.

Q&A Transcript

Q1: How do you understand the concept of Karma relating to rebirth? Do you practice with it?

A: I have always believed in karma and rebirth since I was a very small child. I remember believing that we are intrinsically perfect, but somehow we have lost sight of our true nature. Therefore, we have to keep coming back again and again until we finally discover who we truly are and our innate pure nature.

I've always felt that this particular lifetime was just one in a continuity of endless past lifetimes. What we are experiencing now is generally a result of past actions, and how we respond to what is happening to us now is creating our future. Everything from the past is being consumed, and the future is being created in this very moment.

Collective karma is just lots of people who have similar karma being drawn together like a magnet. They will experience similar things because they have created similar causes in the past. Even when something similar happens to different people, how they respond can be very different. Some people gain something, while others do not.

What happens to us may be conditioned by the past, but how we respond is open. That's why we're training, isn't it? We're trying to learn to be more present, more clear, more aware so that we can make skillful responses no matter what happens. The problem is that often our conditioning creates unskillful responses, and then we just perpetuate the problem.

Q2: How do you understand Buddha's teachings on meditation? Can you describe your own tradition of meditation practice?

A: Tibetan Buddhism has many meditation techniques and many levels, from the simplicity of just sitting to highly complex tantric visualizations and yogic practices. I always think of Tibetan Buddhism like a Dharma Supermarket - there's so much there, something for everybody. If you don't resonate with one method, then try another method.

In our tradition, apart from the tantric visualization methods and yogic practices, there is also the Mahamudra, which is very similar to the Soto Zen approach. It emphasizes the awareness, the pure seeing of the object over the object itself. For example, if one is focusing on the breath, the important thing is not the breath, which is just a hook, but the knowing of the breath.

When the awareness is clear and sharp, we drop the object and just become aware of being aware, like an eagle flying in the sky - effortless, but totally present and aware. Along with that comes the examination of thoughts: What is a thought? Where do thoughts come from? Where do they go? What do they feel like? Who is thinking?

The ultimate question is "Who am I?" The object of all this is to transcend the dualistic nature of our conceptual thinking mind and to recognize the non-dual nature of our pristine awareness, our pure consciousness, which connects us with all beings instead of separating us from them.

Q3: Could you expand on the concept of kindness as it relates to strictness/discipline? And perhaps the directions you see temples' or monastic training facilities' legacy heading?

A: While one indeed needs strict discipline and good training, there should also be laughter and joyful fun. The Buddha himself always emphasized the importance of the four Brahmaviharas: loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity. It's very important to open up the heart to embrace all sentient beings, not just humans, especially through the cultivation of loving-kindness and compassion.

Discipline should feel natural, not enforced by fear of punishment. It's about having an inner balance which manifests as outer discipline. The two sides of clear discipline and open, spacious joy are very important and bring each other into a good balance.

Q4: In considering how the term "sangha" is used in many American Zen contexts to refer to the community of practitioners, including majority lay practitioners, I'm curious if you would elaborate on these terms "sangha," "community," and perhaps "metta" and "harmony"?

A: As we know, the Buddha established a fourfold sangha of monastics and lay people of both genders. Nowadays, in Asian Buddhist countries, the word sangha mostly refers to the monastic sangha, especially to the monks. But sangha in itself means a community.

The Buddha emphasized that when people come together in the name of the Dharma, they should cultivate harmonious actions of body, speech, and mind. For example, seniors should guide and instruct juniors, and juniors should respect and serve seniors, like in a well-functioning family.

In our nunnery, the young nuns help the older nuns, and the older nuns look after, teach, guide, and protect the younger ones. In this way, we have metta (loving-kindness) towards each other and the opportunity to practice and cultivate patience and kindness.

A Dharma center should be a welcoming place where one can trust others to be kind and share together in practice, study, and service. We should feel comfortable in our sangha, inwardly at ease even if we observe outer discipline and protocol. It should be a welcoming, warm place where we feel accepted and cared for.

This is especially important in our society nowadays when people are feeling so isolated and alone. A Dharma community should be like a nest - welcoming and safe, where you can inwardly feel at peace and relax.

Q5: Could you elaborate on the relationship you see between Western modalities for treating mental health, and so-called Eastern trainings/teachings/guidance, especially in a time when suicide rates are increasing?

A: If people are simply suffering from stress, then gentle shamatha meditation and mindfulness training can really help. However, if they're dealing with more serious mental health issues like psychosis or schizophrenia, meditation might actually bring up more than they can handle, especially without a skillful teacher.

For those suffering from trauma, it might be better to start by consulting a therapist who is expert in that field and can help them deal with their problems skillfully. Meditation works well with a healthy, balanced mind. The Buddha recommended shamatha to help us heal our mind and cultivate a well-tamed mind that is amenable to being trained.

Modern psychotherapy can be more helpful at the beginning to get people into a balanced state rather than plunging into intense meditation practices. This is one contribution which the West can give to the East. Buddhism is very amenable to absorbing the culture of whatever country it goes to, so now that it's in the West, it's also adopting many aspects which the West is especially good at, such as psychotherapy and psychiatry.

It's not an either/or situation, but rather both psychotherapy and Buddhist practices can learn from and support each other.

Q6: Would you give an example of what standing up for oneself and others in a compassionate way could look like?

A: In Tibetan Buddhism, Avalokiteshvara represents compassion. While usually depicted as peaceful and smiling, another manifestation is Mahakala, the great black one, who is a very wrathful protector. This is because sometimes beings cannot be tamed by peaceful means, and one needs to appear threatening. However, Mahakala is pure skillful compassion - he is not angry, but wholly compassionate, even while his actions appear wrathful.

You can consider it like a mother with a small child who wants to run into a busy street. The mother might have to appear angry or forceful to prevent the child from harming themselves, but her motivation is love and protection, not anger.

Sometimes we have to appear very stern because just being sweet is not going to achieve the goal of preventing harm. But the real motivation is our loving compassion and seeing the danger in what that person is going to do, not out of anger or a desire for retaliation.

The Buddha said karma is intention. We can appear very sweet and nice, but our motivation might be twisted and not good, wanting harm for the other person even while we're smiling sweetly. So always, it's the motivation that's the important part.

Q7: What are characteristics of an experienced teacher? And, conversely, what are indications that someone is unwise, immature or otherwise unsuitable for a teacher-student relationship?

A: This is a complex question, especially given recent issues with unsuitable conduct by some teachers who appeared to be very eminent. One problem is that, especially in a larger setting, we often only see the teacher in their role as a teacher and not how they are behind the scenes in ordinary, everyday life.

The Dalai Lama said that there should be no difference between their actions and conduct while sitting on a throne and behind the scenes. If there is a difference, then we should be very careful about that so-called teacher.

Ask yourself:

• How does the teacher treat people who might be sponsors versus ordinary people who are of no special benefit to them or their Dharma center?

• Does the teacher seem to embody Dharma in daily life and in their interactions with others?

• In stressful situations, how do they respond?

• How are the senior students of this teacher? Would you like to be like them? Do they embody qualities superior to ordinary people? Are they more kind and considerate, more generous and good-natured? Do they have a good sense of humor and are they unpretentious?

• What is the feeling in the sangha? Is it warm and welcoming, or is it unwelcoming, cliquey, or cult-like?

It's not just about the teacher; it's about the effect the teacher has on others. Usually, in the texts, it says one should examine the teacher for up to 12 years before accepting them as their teacher. The point is not to just jump into it because the teacher looks charismatic or has lots of students or a nice, big fancy center, but really to examine quite critically how everything unfolds, what the mandala looks like, and whether or not you really want to be a part of this.

Q8: How do you view the Buddha's teachings in comparison with Buddhist teachings from other sources, like how Soto Zen practitioners study Buddhism through Dogen's words and teachings?

A: It's important to know what later masters wrote, as they also reflect the culture of their times. For example, Dogen reflects his background and what was going on and what was important at the time when he lived. The Tibetans themselves also rely on later Buddhist teachers like Nagarjuna, Asanga, and other Indian masters from the great Buddhist universities, as well as later Tibetan scholars.

However, for us nowadays, there is so much that has been reputably translated of the suttas from the Pali Canon and the Mahayana sutras. It's good and inspiring to know what the Buddha probably actually said, as far as we can know. In the Pali Canon especially, the Buddha really walks on the dusty ground - you feel you get to know the Buddha as a person as well as a Buddha.

The Pali Canon and many of the Mahayana sutras are full of practical wisdom for all occasions. I think as modern Buddhists nowadays, we need to also know what the Buddha taught and not just what was made of it later in other cultures which are very distanced actually from India.

Q9: With that in mind I wonder why some Buddhist organizations and teachers oppose the use of these medicines, regarding them as toxins? What is your view or perspective on this?

[Note: The transcript doesn't include a direct answer to this question about medicines. It's possible that this question wasn't addressed in the recording or was omitted from the transcript. If you have additional information about Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo's response to this question, please let me know and I'll include it.]

Q10: Would you speak more on intentions, misinterpretations, and perhaps going so far as how one can amend or recognize the impact of actions and speech which, despite perhaps meritorious intentions, create or perpetuate suffering and/or harm?

A: The Buddha described karma as intention. Sometimes a good-looking action may mask a wrong intention, and actions that appear unskillful may have a good underlying intention. We often act with an intention of helping, but we lack clear insight or wisdom. That's one reason why compassion must always be conjoined with wisdom.

Some people are very kind and have good intentions, but they lack the wisdom and clear insight in how to actually be of help. Being compassionate alone can cause more trouble; being wise alone can make you very cold. The two come together like the wings on a bird which will fly.

It's important to examine our intentions and the impact of our actions. If we find that our actions, despite good intentions, have caused harm or suffering, it's crucial to acknowledge this, take responsibility, and learn from the experience. This is part of our practice - developing the wisdom to understand the full consequences of our actions and the compassion to address any harm we may have inadvertently caused.

Support the DGL Nunnery

The Dongyu Gatsal Ling Nunnery, founded by Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo, provides education and spiritual training for Buddhist nuns. To support their work, please visit their website for more information on how to contribute.